Vincennes Lincoln- Jasper Sectional Game

[fanatic364]

Now can somebody please tell me, how a human being can take a chamionship away from kids, for a kid taking his helmet off 2 steps from the plate.
by the way
4hours40min game, 14 innings. oh yeah ALICES screwed

[titanfan]

Rules? Forgive me if this sounds a bit trivial or even smug. But I truly believe that to many rules in sports are not enforced. I watch Little League hitters step out of the box to get the signs. Against the rules. Little League players swinging a bat in the "on deck" portion of the dugout. Against the rules. Little League dugouts without a closeable gate. Against the rules. Taking off a helmet while on the field. Against the rules. At all ages and in all sanctioning bodies of youth sports.

My point is this. If all rules were enforced from the beginning, you would not question this. I know he was "caught up in the moment". We all have been there and we all have made mistakes while being there. This time he was called on it. No one to blame here, except maybe the fans and officials who thinks it is OK to allow certain situations to dictate a rule be enforced or not. Self included.

[Basketball25]

Lets see, best Vincennes player gets thrown out. Vincennes coach gets thrown out. Sectional Championship gets taken away from Vincennes. Fans screaming at each other. Police officers getting the umps out of there before they are killed. Sounds to me like a tournament game at Jasper. Even though the helment incident is a rule, you are not aloud to remove your helment until you actually cross home plate. It's a call that is never made at that time. For that to cost the Vincennes kids a sectional Championship is a travesty. It's called playing the tournament at Jasper. Hang in there Vincennes, next re-alignment Jasper will be 4A. Then they can go to Evansville for all their tournaments. They will love that !

[mojo]

Fill me in all the way on this- was the kid removing his helmet as he was crossing the plate with the winning run? I agree- it's a total crock of crap for the ump to make that call. You'd probably have a tough time finding where that had happened before.

[Basketball25]

The player actually removed his helment about two or three steps before he crossed the plate. But he removed it because he was excited and they just won the Sectional Championship. Had he taken off the helment and pointed at Jasper and trash talked. I think you can make the call for poor sportsmanship. Jasper has won alot of sectionals, and most of them are earned, but shakey calls at Jasper in the tournament is not un-common. Coach Golbert is an excellent coach and does a great job, but they have benefited by having the tournament at Jasper all these years. Like I said, they will soon be driving to Evansville for the tournament. "Might be a little different down there"

[WHS04]

Wow, what a disappointing story, this is pure craziness. That truly is a travesty that those boys were robbed of a Sectional Championship just because a kid got excited and won the game for his team.

[OldHatchet]

Wasn't at the game ... so I can't comment on the situation. But let me ask a question. Was there a possiblity, even remote, of a play at the plate? If there was then there is a safety issue. In today's society where lawsuits are rampant one of the things that is drilled into officials is to be sure to enforce the safety rules without exception ... whether its is checking the weight of pole vaulters vs the maximum allowable weight on the pole ... wearing required equipment correctly in football, or any other situation ... because officials can and do get sued for failure to enforce safety rules. The helmet rule in baseball is a safety rule ... it has to be enforced without exception. It is a shame if the player, in his celebration, removed his helmet on the field before the game was officially over. But if there was the possiblity of a play at the plate ... however remote .... the umpire had no choice but to enforce the rule. The outcome may not be palatable ... but what if there was an incoming ball and the player was hit in the head by an incoming baseball ... the official stands to be sued and is liable for the safety of the players ... expecially if he is negligent in enforcing safety rules. Guys, a kid celebrating a baseball game, just isn't worth a man's financial security so a town can celebrate a sectional. I know it doesn't seem fair ... but look at the situation from the officials standpoint on this safety rule.

[fanatic364]

Yes, the kid did take his helmet off 2 or 3 steps from the plate. No, there was not a play. Once the ball went the the outfield the jasper players stopped and i dont think the ball was retrieved. Complete horse crap. and the umpire must have not read his rule book because the rule book says, team must first be issued and warning and play stands, and then if repeated player ejected and results in out. case #1.4.5 NFHS Baseball Case Rule Book. The Vincennes Lincoln Baseball Team won that Sectional and they should be playing the Evansville Winner Tuesday.

[mojo]

That's what I was thinking- that there would probably need to be a warning made first to be able to call a guy out like that. If the rulebook is clearly against how the play was called, I would think it would be reversible and Vincennes would be deservedly declared the winner.

As for any ump getting sued in a situation like that- wth? How could the ump be found liable (unless a similar play would have occurred earlier in the game and a warning wasn't made).

Link to story:
www.suncommercial.com/articles/2005/06/06/sports/spts02.txt

[Basketball25]

There was no play at the plate, and obviously no warning. Just a unbelievable mistake by the home plate umpire Douglas Ray.

[BIG8]

Douglas Ray should not be allowed to ump another tournament game.

[titanfan]

Just a thought about the warning. I know that some umpires give team warnings prior to the first pitch. Not saying that is the case, but it is a possibility.

[Basketball25]

Titanfan, the rule in the book states. When a player removes his helment before he crosses the plate, he is issued a warning and play stands. If the player repeats this in the game he is then ejected and called out.

[titanfan]

Basketball25 said:

Titanfan, the rule in the book states. When a player removes his helment before he crosses the plate, he is issued a warning and play stands. If the player repeats this in the game he is then ejected and called out.

Understood. I am not arguing your interpritation of the rule, or what the actual wording of the rule is. Just stating that some umpires will go over ground rules and their particular hot spots within the rules while meeting with both coaches.

I have a reletive that was asked to move to the high school level this year. He chose to stay in Pony, Babe Ruth, and others to gain another years experience. He is very familiar with the rules of the IHSAA. And we may not like it. We may not agree with it. But some umpires do give "team warnings" during their meeting with the coaches. Most often for the arguing of balls and strikes as well as cursing. I recieved a team warning before the game when I took our girls to the state Little League tourney in Zionsville some years ago.

I would agree that this is a nasty way to end a season. Particularly for a perrenial power such as the Alices. But like I said, it is possible that a team warning was given prior to the game. Most may disagree. You are entitled, even if your opinion is "whatever".

[BIG8]

My understanding is that the other two umps tried to get Douglas Ray to change his call and give the warning but he would not.