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Post by titanfan on Jun 8, 2005 15:42:49 GMT -5
Titanfan...my opinion is NOT "whatever" on you saying that maybe the umpires made the team warning prior to the game, and during the coaches meeting. I said "whatever" because I really doubt that the ump, esp. in this case took the time to go over the rules prior to the game. And we aren't talking little league here..this was sectional championship..high school ball! And you are probably right given what I have heard about this particular ump. Nor did I mean to harrass or belittle you in anyway. As for my comparison to L.L., I know that many youth umpires who do the state level games also do IHSAA games as well. If their habits are such at one level, they are likely to be so at another. Big 8, if indeed the other umpires did this, as they should have, it really speaks poorly of Mr. Ray's respect for his peers and the sport in general. Also a question here. I read in a post about an appeal. Is that the same as protesting the game? If so, aren't all protests during the tournement to be solved on the spot, by a representitive of the IHSAA, other than one of the field officials? I am totally uneducated in the appeals/protest area of IHSAA baseball. Please clear this up for me.
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Post by Basketball25 on Jun 8, 2005 18:03:43 GMT -5
I heard on 94.9 this morning, an umpire called in and said the other two umpires did indeed try to talk him into making the right call. He refused and said the play stands as he called it.
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Post by squirebishop on Jun 8, 2005 18:13:04 GMT -5
oh, my..........what an awful way to end a season...esp for Seniors.......this as bad as making a shot at the "buzzer" to win (which is called no good).to only LATER find on video tapes and cams.that there was .001 left on the clock when it went in..........
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Post by squirebishop on Jun 8, 2005 18:24:35 GMT -5
Well...SURPRISE,,,SURPRISE,,,,SURPRISE..the ruling is in on the appeal and it favors Jasper! The ihsaa says that they do not over rule an umpires call. Why even have a rules book. I mean we weren't arguing balls and strikes here. I think in the near future the ihsaa had better make sure that all of their umps know the rule book if they aren't going to stand behind the rules that they make. THIS is the WORST part of this entire TRAGEDY!! You can, once again, thank your feeble minded IHSAA.
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Post by squirebishop on Jun 8, 2005 18:36:09 GMT -5
.one final note.as I live way up north.and have no loyalties to either program..totally neutral.........from what I've read.pro and con.......VINCENNES GOT SCREWED.......not ONLY by the ump.......but, more frighteningly, by the IHSAA.
Congratulations Alices on a successful year!!
ps.this made me so mad.i started a new thread.......see "Where is the accountability"?
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Gary
Junior varsity
Posts: 52
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Post by Gary on Jun 8, 2005 19:36:51 GMT -5
As an IHSAA umpire for both baseball and softball, the rule book may say you can give a warning and the play stands, however no umpire ever has to give a warning. I have ejected a player for throwing his bat and helmet without a warning. Again, a safety issue. As for going over the rules before the game, give me a break. If we went over all of the rules in the book, the game would never get played. If we were to pick and choose what rules we went over it wouldn't be the right ones. The bottom line is this, coaches as well as umpires are supposed to attend the rules interpretation meetings. It then becomes the responsibility of the coaches to make sure the players know the rules. Now one last thought, what if the player in all the excitement had missed the plate? Would you have wanted the umpire to overlook that? Officiating is a tough job, and as I was told when I started. You are going to make 50% of the fans happy and the other 50% pissed off.
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Post by squirebishop on Jun 8, 2005 19:49:19 GMT -5
.to hell with the fans.rules are rules.the ump did NOT call it as it should have been........A "warning".
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Post by mojo on Jun 8, 2005 20:03:22 GMT -5
As an IHSAA umpire for both baseball and softball, the rule book may say you can give a warning and the play stands, however no umpire ever has to give a warning. I have ejected a player for throwing his bat and helmet without a warning. Again, a safety issue. As for going over the rules before the game, give me a break. If we went over all of the rules in the book, the game would never get played. If we were to pick and choose what rules we went over it wouldn't be the right ones. The bottom line is this, coaches as well as umpires are supposed to attend the rules interpretation meetings. It then becomes the responsibility of the coaches to make sure the players know the rules. Now one last thought, what if the player in all the excitement had missed the plate? Would you have wanted the umpire to overlook that? Officiating is a tough job, and as I was told when I started. You are going to make 50% of the fans happy and the other 50% pissed off. You make a couple of comparisons that don't seem to make sense at all. A player throwing his bat, much less his bat and helmet should be tossed out of the game. If the ump sees it, nine times out of ten they will... If a player misses touching a base (in any instance) should be called out and absolutely will if the ump catches it. If the runner misses the plate and Jasper alertly tags the guy with the ball in the midst of the celebration- of course he should be called out. No doubt it's a tough job- doesn't excuse the guy from crapping all over the rule book and doesn't excuse the powers that be from not having any backbone.
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Post by Basketball25 on Jun 8, 2005 21:49:31 GMT -5
Douglas Ray refused to make the right call even after talking to the other two umpires, who did not agree with him. He admitted in the Jasper paper he made a mistake, but said he can't change it now. Maybe Mr. Ray should keep up with the rule book, if he's gonna umpire a Sectional championship. Umpires, like coaches and players need to be well prepared to do the best job they can. Not a very good job of preparation by Mr. Ray.
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8224
Junior varsity
Posts: 53
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Post by 8224 on Jun 11, 2005 15:41:06 GMT -5
I was not at the game but the Jasper newspaper had a story that said the firstbase umpire was bumped by a Vincennes coach right after the runner at the plate was called out and that the umpires then quickly left the field in fear. If the Vincennes coach had not bumped the umpire they said that they would have took the time to check the rule book. I think that if the Vincennes head coach most likely knew the rule or at least knew to get out his rule book and show it to the umpire. The head coach did not do his job by getting thrown out earlier in the game and appearently did not educate his assistants about the rules of the game. If the assistant caoch who took over for the head coach knew the rules and approached the umpire with his rule book he could have easily got the call corrected before play resumed.
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Post by OldHatchet on Jun 11, 2005 18:27:48 GMT -5
I've worn a stripped shirt a couple of times ... never officiated baseball. ... and I wasn't at the game. At first I was concerned because the ump was being ran up the pole because he was enforcing a safety rule .... after reading about the game and talking to some reliable folks who were at the game ... it is obvious the ump booted the call. The first rule of officiating is "to get it right". It should have been the responsiblity of the two other officials to immediately question the homeplate umpire about his call and to remind him of the correct interpretation of the rule. I have picked up several pass-interference flags when one of the side officials came to me and said that the ball hadn't crossed the line of scrimmage ... which was the rule until this year. Whether correcting a call makes the official "look" stupid ... is not the point ... the whole point is to get the call right. That apparently didn't happen in the Jasper-Vincennes game. It is also a simple rule that every official should be aware of. In instances like this ... that revolve around the misapplication of the rule ... and in which there would have been a discernable outcome ... the IHSAA needs to ammend their rules to allow for a protest. The protesting team could appeal to all the officials working the game .... who could then review the situation and come up with the correct ruling. (in the appeal process the homeplate umpire would cease being the "crew chief" and simply be one vote of the three). The appeals could only be for misinterpretation or misapplication of a rule ... no appeals allowed on ball-strike, safe-out calls, etc. This would allow for an immediate and affective way of appealing situations such as this without disrupting the flow of the game ... or throwing the outcome of the game in doubt. Does this sound workable?
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Post by Lhs05 on Jun 14, 2005 17:53:43 GMT -5
A friend on the Loogootee baseball team called and asked me to go to this game because he had been listening to it onthe radio and it sounded like a heated battle. Man, I could kick myself for not going now.
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8224
Junior varsity
Posts: 53
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Post by 8224 on Jun 16, 2005 1:11:01 GMT -5
gocrazy, as you said I was not at the game. You were at the game. I think that those 2 things are the only part of your post you got right. You did not like it that I quoted the Jasper paper? OK I will quote the Vincennes paper for this post.
1. You wrote " He DID do his job when he argued that his player was ejected."
The Vincennes paper said "Pfoff now wishes that he had handled the third-inning argument differently. He said that coaching is like being the head of a family and that the players become your little brothers. It's hard for a big brother to see his little brothers put in a bad situation without coming to their defense. After having time to think about a situation that didn't allow time for much thinking, he said that he should have reacted differently.
"I lost my cool," Pfoff said. "For that I apologize." 2. You wrote " And why was his player ejected? Because he was a threat at bat and on bases to Jasper. He had 2 doubles prior to being thrown out." The Vincennes paper said “Lincoln played without designated hitter Craig Heinz, who was ejected in the third for not sliding at home in a run-down play. Lincoln coach Brandon Pfoff disagreed, argued the call and was also ejected.
And
“Forget any sort of Grassy Knoll theories; there was no conspiracy between the umps and Jasper. Ray, who lives in Seymour and has been umpiring for 12 years, admits he missed the call. Ress did as much as admit it by removing Ray from further postseason assignments, which included a regional game, semistate games and maybe a state finals game.”
Keep in mind that the umpire is assigned the sectional games by the IHSAA and is paid by the IHSAA not Jasper.
3. You wrote "The head coach does know the rules and so do the other coaches."
The Vincennes paper said “Can a better example be found of the various intricacies and nuances of the baseball rule book than the Vincennes-Jasper Helmet Game? Lincoln's Garrett Oexmann apparently didn't know that he couldn't take off his helmet when he was a step or two from home plate with the winning run. Umpire Doug Ray spotted the infraction, but he didn't know the penalty for it. Since he got no assistance from the other two umps, I assume they didn't know it either. The Lincoln coaching staff, which at that point was minus its head coach, Brandon Pfoff, who had been ejected, didn't know the proper penalty and admits it didn't know until later that Oexmann should have been merely warned and not called out."
4. You wrote “Then when Lincoln won, the coach in the dugout gets the game changed saying he took his helmet off, he's out? What coaching staff doesn't know their rules?!!!!”
This is from the Jasper paper. Jaspers head coach said that he was on his way across the field to shake hands with the Vincennes coach after the apparent run to end the game in the 9th inning, He was told the runner was out and that the game was not over. The Jasper coach never asked for the runner to be called out. The umpire made that call on his own.
You wrote “And none of the coaches for Lincoln bumbed any of the umps. I was there and witnessed the entire mess”
I can’t find the story right now but I read in the Evansville paper that one of the umpires was bumped by the 1st base coach form Vincennes which is why they received the police escort off the field. I doubt that you were watching the first base umpire if all the problems seemed to be with the guy calling the game behind the plate.
5. You wrote “What coaching staff doesn't know their rules?!!!!”
Again according to the Vincennes paper and you coach “The Lincoln coaching staff, which at that point was minus its head coach, Brandon Pfoff, who had been ejected, didn't know the proper penalty and admits it didn't know until later that Oexmann should have been merely warned and not called out."
You seem to think that I support Jasper. I do not. I am from Southridge and would be happy to see them lose every game. You seem to think that your coach went to the umpire after the call in the 9th inning and tried to get the call changed. Maybe he did but arguing that the call should not have been made is different than taking the rule book to the umpire and showing him in black and white that the rule is different than what he called. I know the Vincennes coaches did not do this because the stated in the Vincennes newpaper that they did not know that the call was wrong at that time.
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Post by mojo on Jun 16, 2005 9:26:53 GMT -5
... 4. You wrote “Then when Lincoln won, the coach in the dugout gets the game changed saying he took his helmet off, he's out? What coaching staff doesn't know their rules?!!!!” This is from the Jasper paper. Jaspers head coach said that he was on his way across the field to shake hands with the Vincennes coach after the apparent run to end the game in the 9th inning, He was told the runner was out and that the game was not over. The Jasper coach never asked for the runner to be called out. The umpire made that call on his own. That part of gocrazy's post in particular had me scratching my head. It totally contadicts what had been reported. I for one believe I will go with the newpaper account. Good post, 8224.
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8224
Junior varsity
Posts: 53
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Post by 8224 on Jun 16, 2005 15:52:13 GMT -5
I was looking foward to seeing gocrazy's response to my latest post. I was disappointed to see that he was so blown away by the information in my reply to his post that he totally removed his post.
I guess that I will have to add gocrazy to my list of people on this board that can not be believed without first finding indipendent conformation of the information they post. The funny thing is that once they have the misinformation in their post pointed out to them and given a scorce to the right information they are not big enough to admitt that they are wrong. They just run and hide.
The list so far only includes: 1. John Stark 2. gocrazy
If you know of any other posters that need to have the information in their post double checked before you can rely on it please post thier name here. The truth will set you free. Thanks.
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